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https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/6839/49

answer screenshot

I don't think this answer is worth deleting. The facts in the question are reiterated in a blunt way, not rude. The inappropriate word has been edited out (and is easily removed).

If you don't agree how the answer is delivered, please do not easily delete, but downvote instead. This answer gives a different perspective from the offended person's view, and help us to think how to think from the offended person's view. I don't think this will gather many upvotes, but I think this is worth keeping as an answer.

I would like to know how the community feel about undeleting this answer.

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    Before everyone goes off running to undelete it because they don't agree it was rude: Please consider that apologizing was already suggested in an earlier answer... There was no need to be so harsh to the OP just to tell them : take her apart and apologize... To me, it read like a rant on OPs behaviour just to get them down further, instead of providing IPS advice. That IS a rude thing to do. You can make frame challenges here, but don't twist the knife while doing so!
    – Tinkeringbell Mod
    Nov 18 '17 at 18:37
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    "The facts in the question are reiterated in a blunt way" - this is unnecessary in an answer. Apart from that unnecessary part, there is not much left - there are a lot of answers already stating that the OP should apologize and also offer the the offended person's view (apaul goes even further and suggests the OP to relate to similar experiences). So how many answers do we need telling the OP to go and apologize? Note, that this is the actual answer: "You can talk to her separately, tell her you had a preexisting injury on your foot and apologize for your remark, it was uncalled for."
    – Anne Daunted GoFundMonica
    Nov 18 '17 at 18:37
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The OP makes it clear in their question they already feel plentifully bad about the whole situation.

If you want to frame challenge the meaning of 'make amends' as in telling the OP apologizing can be done, making amends not, this can be done in 1 or 2 sentences, by including a dictionary definition of making amends for example.

There is no need for the whole first paragraph, because it a.) doesn't explain what making amends really means, and b.) is just 5 or 6 sentences restating what was said in the question in such a way as to bring down someone who's already feeling bad. Restating what was already in the question in a harsh way using rude language is a rude thing to do.

It would have been even better to just ask the OP in a comment if making amends was really what they meant to do, or if they just wanted to apologize.

Telling the OP to apologize was already done numerous times in earlier answers. The only part that was useful for the OP was 'go apologize, but don't use the pain as an excuse', which is the how. The why is probably the klutz example + her weight wasn't a factor here. But this isn't in the answer, it's in the comments underneath it.

There's no need for the backstabbing and knifetwisting here.

As for when something is rude or abusive:

As a rule of thumb, everything that would be out of place in polite discourse is rude or abusive.

Putting someone that's already down even further down by using harsh words isn't polite discourse. This answer isn't polite discourse.

Take a look at the comments, the OP definitely wasn't open for improving, so I'll not waste effort and a possible edit war on an answer that's basically reading like it was made to only hurt an OP/ isn't all that different from other answers anyway.

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    Your broader interpretation of 'rude' is valid (if also debatable) @ Tinkeringbell. But the answer possibly cannot be undeleted by users because one member who voted to delete is a moderator. I think that is why @Vylix raised this meta question.
    – English Student
    Nov 18 '17 at 19:02
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    It's btw not my interpretation of what's rude and what not : meta.stackexchange.com/q/58032/369802
    – Tinkeringbell Mod
    Nov 18 '17 at 19:17
  • Thanks for the Meta.SE reference @Tinkeringbell. This part of that page is relevant here: "A post should be marked as rude or abusive (...) if it contains hate speech, obscenities, abuse against people, or abuse of the community or system, i.e., a clear violation of the be-nice policy (...) As a rule of thumb, everything that would be out of place in polite discourse is rude or abusive. If an otherwise valid post contains vulgar words (...) edit the bad part out instead of flagging the entire post as rude or abusive." __ what's debatable is only whether the whole post is rude & abusive.
    – English Student
    Nov 18 '17 at 19:58
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    I appreciate how you often find and quote highly relevant references from Stack Exchange Meta. It might be well worth linking that important Meta.SE page into the body of the answer @Tinkeringbell.
    – English Student
    Nov 18 '17 at 20:00
  • I have now utilised the relevant part of that definitive Meta.SE post in my own answer @Tinkeringbell.
    – English Student
    Nov 18 '17 at 20:30
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I can't answer your Q why that A was deleted. Those who deleted can explain that better. But after reading the answer as it existed with the rude word removed, no need to delete it as rude & abusive, says I. @Jarko Dubbeldam's editing out only the rude word and replacing with "way out of line" made the answer no longer rude or abusive.

Admittedly the answer is highly critical of OP's behavior. However, once the rude word was removed, the language of that criticism is neither rude nor abusive. Here is the full text of the answer with just the single edit. Make up your own mind:

You can apologize, but you can't make amends. You called out her weight in front of the whole class and there's no way to retract that. You shamed her and this will be on her mind for days to come and every time she steps into the classroom. She made a simple mistake and got called fat. Her being overweight has nothing to do with stepping on your foot. You were hurt and went for the easiest insult and hurt someone in a way she won't quickly shake off.

You can talk to her separately, tell her you had a preexisting injury on your foot and apologize for your remark, it was uncalled for. You can't excuse yourself out of this one, so don't blame it on being in pain. Being in pain at the moment is no excuse, because, again, her being overweight is not the cause for stepping on your foot, so you had no right to bring it up.

You were way out of line saying that, but you are showing remorse now and can learn from it. These are the mistakes we make and learn from. Next time you know not to go for the easiest insult, because you know a quick remark like that can have a disproportionately devastating effect.

I am not aware that criticizing the OP in language that's not rude or abusive goes against the 'be nice' policy. Or else we could never criticize OP because the post might get deleted!

I also think the last paragraph at least is constructive criticism. Maybe not a very good answer for OP's question? If so, downvote, downvote, no need to delete.

You probably agree as well, @Vylix, since you did ask this meta Q and noted that

"I don't think this answer is worth deleting. The facts in the question are reiterated in a blunt way, not rude (...) This answer gives a different perspective from the offended person's view, and help us to think how to think from the offended person's view (...) If you don't agree how the answer is delivered, please do not easily delete, but downvote instead."

I generally agree with OP, if not specifically about this particular answer. That does introduce the question, "when should a post be deleted as rude and abusive?"

May I make use of the valuable Meta.SE post kindly linked by @Tinkeringbell in a comment, this part of which answer is most relevant here:

A post should be marked as rude or abusive (...) if it contains hate speech, obscenities, abuse against people, or abuse of the community or system, i.e., a clear violation of the be-nice policy (...) As a rule of thumb, everything that would be out of place in polite discourse is rude or abusive. If an otherwise valid post contains vulgar words (...) edit the bad part out instead of flagging the entire post as rude or abusive."

Source: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/58035/362639

The only thing that is debatable here is whether the answer that is at the centre of this issue had one removable rude word or whether the whole post is rude and abusive.

There is at least one previous example of an answer where the only one rude & abusive word alone was edited out and the answer was not deleted:

Rude/abusive flag declined?

4 notable comments from that meta discussion under @Catija's answer are extracted here:

But given the full context of being generally a terrible answer and being rude, shouldn't it have been deleted? – apaul Oct 19 [read full comment link]

We don't delete terrible answers, we downvote them. – Catija♦ Oct 19 [comment link]

Excellent answer and excellent decision (to edit and not to delete) @Catija. – English Student Oct 19 [comment link]

I'd like to add that I would like to see more mention of 'rude/abusive/bad' answers in chat (...) If it's a single word, we should definitely edit. – Tinkeringbell Oct 24 [read full comment link]

Note that by 'excellent answer' I mean @Catija's excellent meta explanation of the action taken in that particular case. She also reminded us that those users who have the right to edit posts can remove the offensive word without waiting for moderator intervention.

But we do need to maintain consistency in deleting or not deleting members' posts. So if more members agree then the answer you referenced can possibly be undeleted.

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