How do you tell an answerer that you think their answer needs work?

Question

Today I saw a weak, but well voted, answer.

There were a number of viable, potential answers to the question. So this was not a "how do I drive drunk safely" impossible answer that must be answered "you don't". The answerer thought it was, though, which I think was hasty.

The answerer did indeed proscribe an answer. But even the answerer didn't like it, since the answerer spent several paragraphs tearing the answer to shreds and predicting woe and suffering if the answer was followed. That didn't really seem like an answer to me. I wouldn't have minded if it was an aside to a good answer. The answerer is capable of better and I wanted to see the answerer step up.

But how do you have that discussion?

The ways I tried didn't work: First simply saying "This is not an answer to the question." And then explaining how I felt "you don't" isn't an answer, frameshifts shouldn't be extreme or made lightly, an answer you tear apart isn't an answer, etc. This melted down very rapidly into violations of "be nice", "assume good intent", mass deletion and an admonishment of "This Ends Here" without any link to a rule to support it.

Last I heard, comments were precisely for commenting on problems with answers. That is literally their one purpose, and it seemed that I was the only one following that rule.

So going forward... how are you supposed to handle fundamental flaws in answers like this? Is there a reasonable and standard process which should apply to all Contributors equally? I am assuming that is a core value here. Am I mistaken?

Answer 1

See here's the thing about that... It wasn't a bad answer, or a wrong answer, it was just an answer that you happened to personally disagree with. That's about it. Your disagreement doesn't make the answer a straw man, or a political rant, it's still just an answer that you happen to personally disagree with. If you really need evidence of the fact that it was an answer, take a look at the votes. Last I looked some 80 users thought it was an answer worth upvoting while only 6 bothered to downvote.

Now what can/should you do with an answer you personally disagree with?

You can vote, and write your own answer. Trying to argue someone into changing their answer into what you personally think the answer ought to be is just a huge waste of time and, more often than not, leads to arguing in circles.

If you have a different perspective, and think you really know what the answer ought to be, write your own answer if your answer is actually better it may even gain some votes and out do the answer that you personally disagree with.

We tend to flag comments that seek to argue with answers because they're generally not productive. This isn't a forum. This isn't the place to discuss. This is a place to ask and answer questions. So... If you personally disagree with an answer, write your own answer.

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On the very rare occasion, someone may post an "answer" that really has nothing at all to do with the question. If you spot one of these, you should still avoid arguing about it in the comment section. Flag it, vote on it, and if you think you know what the answer should be, write your own answer.

Answer 2

Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

You can read more about this here.

This isn't a discussion site. It is a question and answer site. The only reason the main site has comments is to improve the questions and answers. Comments are to be used to ask for clarifications or add more information. It says this in the text box before you answer a question. Your comments were deleted because they weren't requesting clarification or suggesting improvements. When a mod tells you to stop doing something, stop doing it. Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

If you think that an answer is not useful downvote it. If you feel the answer could become useful if some improvements are made, you can offer a suggestion about how to improve the question. Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

If you think that an answer doesn't answer the question flag it as not an answer. If you don't understand how it answers the question, request clarification in the comments. Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

If you think there are problems that can't be addressed by the automated systems flag it for moderator attention. Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

Frame challenges are explicitly OK on this exchange. If you disagree with this, you can add an answer to the meta question about frame challenges. Don't argue in the comments on the main site.

Answer 3

Comments are great for nit-picking. "You stated that nutria were released into the wild in the 1940s, but in fact this was first done in the 1930s..." - that kind of thing.

When the entire answer is wrong, misleading, dangerous or not even wrong... A comment is probably insufficient to address it. Yes, you can spend all day posting more comments and arguing with folks in the increasingly-impenetrable thread below the answer... But what good is that doing? Are you expecting the next reader to pause their cursor over the upvote button and say to themselves, "hold up a sec, there are a few dozen comments here - I better read those first"?

...'cause if so, I got some nutria fur futures to sell ya...

Write a better answer

JMac and apaul nailed this already - you want to write your own answer. But don't be content with presenting controversy - another opinionated answer doesn't really improve matters.

Instead, address the asker's problem head-on with facts and well-supported arguments, and then destroy the weak or unsupported assertions in other answers by calmly refuting them.

This is not the path to popularity, of course. Wild assertions and appeals to emotion are always going to win out. But the folks who are looking for something to agree with them aren't going to have to look far anyway; if there's one thing we should be relentlessly focused on here it is providing information not making folks feel good. If at least one answer does that, then the question isn't a total waste; if no answers do that, then no quantity of comments and kibitzing will save it.

Crosslinking

I should add one more thing... On most sites, it's totally fine to write that answer and then drop a link to it on another answer with a note such as, "I think this answer is problematic for numerous reasons, which I've tried to explain in detail in my answer here:"

This should be ok here too, but... It's entirely possible that such a comment will get swept up in a cleanup effort if there are loads and loads of people who are still kibitzing. So an alternate technique is the one I demonstrate in this very answer: link to other answer(s) that touch on similar subject matter in your own answer. This allows folks to both appreciate different perspectives and quickly identify areas you find problematic.

Answer 4

I think the point here is that there is a clear divide in how the community thinks this situation should be approached. The fact is though; this site operates on community consensus; not what you think is right.

There were a lot of comments discussing the particular answer you're talking about. Those got migrated to chat because it was quite a lot of discussion to basically just described the approach of other answers. At that point; it's basically one ideology against another. You're best to post an answer and see what the community thinks at that point.

As far as this specific situation goes, I do have some opinions. Personally, having worked in customer service and having worked with several personable and attractive women, the answer your talking about seemed to align very well with what I've seen. Generally you're supposed to be very nice to customers and treat them in a way that may mislead others into thinking you're interested. If you're a regular customer, asking out an employee makes things very awkward going forward. Like literally to the point that there were some customers that I had to specifically avoid sitting in some sections because they would get extremely anxious about serving them.

There were also reasons given why doing basically every alternative is not a great idea; but they also provided the best approaches for those situations.

The answer to me reads as "You really shouldn't, because these things are likely to go wrong. If you do, here are my suggestions." That's why I think this particular example deserves the attention and upvotes.

In conclusion: It is clearly your opinion that this answer is bad; but your opinion does not represent everyone; and does not seem to represent the majority of people who have read the answers. You've done what you are supposed to; address your concerns in the comments and chat. It should be clear though that what you consider to be fatal flaws are not seen that way by the whole community.

I'm really not sure what else you expect them to do. The answer provides the frame challenge, supports itself, and gives plenty of information. It's also had quite a few edits to make the wording very precise for the intended message.

Answer 5

Vote

If you disagree with a post, you can also downvote it.

Comment

If you have specific suggestions for an answer, leave a comment.

This is not an answer to the question.

That comment does not make a suggestion, it's just a statement that would have perfectly served as flag instead.

Flag

Comments are not meant for big arguments. If you think a post is problematic, flag it as Not an answer and let the moderating community handle it.

Meta

If you absolutely must discuss a specific post, create a question on meta, for example: Does this answer violate the "be nice" policy?

Answer 6

Generally speaking, comments are for requesting improvement or clarification.

So, if you think someone's answer needs work, you should probably stick to improvement suggestions. Meaning, do not debate the validity of an answer in the comments, instead leave opportunities for improvement.

Since I'm not the authority of what comments are for, here is the relevant excerpt from the site rules:

You should submit a comment if you want to:

• Request clarification from the author;
• Leave constructive criticism that guides the author in improving the post;
• Add relevant but minor or transient information to a post (e.g. a link to a related question, or an alert to the author that the question has been updated).

What you want to do would probably fall under constructive criticism. An example of how to do this could be

I think that {argument point} of your answer could use some improvement because {counterpoint}. Maybe you can {suggestion}.

Now, the important part is that you can't just write "this is bad and you're an extremist and should feel bad. In particular comments should not be used to:

Criticisms which do not add anything constructive ("-1, see previous comments you scallywag!"); instead, down-vote (and provide or up-vote a better answer if appropriate);

If you think an answer is just bad and the answerer should be ashamed of themselves for writing it - hold that and downvote instead. That's what downvotes are for. Comments aren't for blasting answerers for answering.

Also, comments should not:

Secondary discussion or debating a controversial point; please use chat instead;

You're supposed to take that to chat. A moderator may move the conversation to chat - as happened with the comments underneath Tinkeringbell's answer you provide as an example here. You can debate your viewpoint to your heart's content there (provided you continue to stay nice - SE is not a place for flinging insults).

For

Discussion of community behavior or site policies; please use meta instead.

This place, meta, is for discussion about site policy.

So in summary, there are avenues for the discussion you want to have, but they aren't comments, which is why yours got removed from the post.

Answer 7

Leave a comment.

You must be careful to abide by the rules here, but you can still make your opinion heard if you phrase your disagreement as a suggestion to improve.

Instead of

It seems like saying that would make him feel embarrassed.

say

It seems like saying that would make him feel embarrassed. Could you explain why that isn't the case?

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Note: Critiquing a post seems to be acceptable behavior on SE in general, just not in IPS according to how things have been moderated here. The following is a canned response for flagging Low Quality Posts (with my emphasis):

“To critique or request clarification from an author, leave a comment below their post.”

quote screenshot

Answer 8

Uh-oh, someone on the internet is wrong!

So what do we do now? Assuming that the post in question was written in good faith and you just think it needs some T.L.C. or maybe a warning to future readers, and if you're on Stack Exchange, this would be the appropriate course of events...

Step 1) Leave a comment

This comment must be all of the following:

1. Polite

   • note: Some people will unfortunately mistake forcefulness (ie: "This answer is dangerous and could result in dragons devouring your children! Do not do what this answer says!") for rudeness, so be careful in how strongly you present yourself.

2. Self-contained (ie: does not require a discussion to break out in comment)

   • It is possible that a discussion might result. Sometimes it is necessary, especially when the poster does not understand your comment and needs to ask for clarification about your comment. However!... Try to keep your comment such that it could stand on its own as well as possible, and hope that it does so.

3. Constructive

   • The comment should provide some actionable statement. Whether that action would be the poster editing their post, or future readers avoiding step N in the answer because it causes a security hole, or readers avoid the answer altogether... whatever the case, if the comment is not directly actionable then question your phrasing of the comment (or question whether the comment is even necessary).

   • Notice my above example which warns that dragons will eat your children. A more serious example of that could be: Q: "How do I know if my gun is jammed or just malfunctioning?" A: "Step 1: Turn it around and look carefully down the barrel to see if there is anything blocking the way. Step 2: ..." Comment on answer: "Beware! If your firearm is malfunctioning, it can be very dangerous to put your eye up to the barrel. This has led to death without proper precautions. (links to some articles where people died from this)" In this case, commenter should also start crafting an edit to the answer, which hopefully will be accepted (though that is not guaranteed).

   • Another example: A: "You need to attach the widget to the sprocket." Comment: "On all new models, you also need to make sure that the widget is at a specific angle which depends on the model. You should probably include some notes about that; here is the relevant material: (link to information for the answerer to consider)"

   • An example that works more closely with OP's intents here (though personally I don't think it applies to the question OP referenced): Comment: "This used to be the preferred methodology for first aid in that situation, but that method was shown to have possible links to cancer. There is now an entirely different method which has been proven both more effective and to definitely not cause cancer. Nobody uses the method in this answer anymore: readers be warned. Poster, you may want to either delete your answer or modify it in some way to indicate that this is not a preferred technique if it can be avoided."

Step 2) Further discussion is needed

How you engage in further discussion depends on whether the poster is trying work with you to improve their post or if the discussion needs to be brought to the attention of others.

If the poster (or others on the poster's behalf) is working with you, move the extended discussion to chat. Unfortunately, you might have to make multiple comments before that option shows up. We have multiple feature requests in to allow us to move a discussion to chat before the automated "Would you like to move this to chat?" link shows up, but that is not making any progress that I am aware of. So a few back-and-forth comments must be tolerated because of the shortcoming of the system, but after that, click "move to chat" when it shows up.

If the extended discussion is not something asking for clarification or helping to improve the post, but rather requires some other (usually more drastic) form of action, then make a meta post.

Step 3) All else failed: Bring down the hammer

If step 1 and step 2 are not sufficient to remedy the problem, and if the post is of such a nature that its existence is an offense to Stack Exchange, then it is time to vote/flag for more drastic action. NOTE! This should not necessarily be done just because the post offends you personally; you must try to put yourself in the other persons' shoes and be tolerant of good-faith posts. Drastic action should be reserved for truly, non-subjectively, factually negative posts.

That's it

That's what we have available to us. If the issue somehow does not fit well into this paradigm, then do your best within the framework provided, but be aware that legalists abound on Stack Exchange who are likely to ticket you for jay-walking.

If you do not feel comfortable acting on your own and want other opinions first, or to get someone else to act on your behalf (which is often needed since many of us cannot do things like vote to close), then make a meta discussion post.

Answer 9

One way to have that discussion is to create a question on meta about that post. That creates a place where the topic is that specific post, so the discussion can be properly focused.

Another way is to create a more general meta discussion, not about a specific post, but about the underlying issue. For this reason I have created the following post so we can hash out what exactly we expect from frame challenges, in the past and those yet to be posted.

I invite you all to chime in.

Answer 10

This site is becoming a lost cause. The meta and moderator community simply don't address the issues and act only to further their own moral agenda without a philosophically neutral stance.

The answer to this question is that in the present format, S.E. cannot function for this kind of subject matter. No consensus can be formed, and the moderator/meta community has been hijacked by a clique of puritans with a cultural bias.

What needs to happen is that the owners/operators of S.E need to get involved and alter the rules. If anyone has any contacts/avenues/suggestions on how best to do this, in all honesty I think this would be the most positive way to address the situation and improve S.E.

Answer 11

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you have an issue with the following:

this was the least offensive way someone ever 'shopped' for me

(implies that all ways are offensive)

Previous edit (removed but still caused some comments):

She's working, and since she's working as a cashier and not a prostitute, her job description doesn't involve being picked up by random guys. The only thing that those jobs have in common is that they require the worker to be nice to their customer (most of the times). This is, of course, an exaggeration, but I hope you do get the point

(comparing flirting to prostitution/sexual abuse is extremely offensive and damaging to youth)

Overreaction that you "must not complain about":

your number might end up in the bin with a dramatic gesture [...] you might be labeled a creep and denied access to the store, depending on how much this tends to upset her. If you get declined, however rudely, don't go complaining.

(justifying unrestrained unwarranted aggression over a ... "want to know you here is my number"-note; not all courtrooms would take lightly a "you are a creep!" in the above scenario; a simple firm "no" is a better option)

So, how do you explain all that without commenting?

On other SE sites:

You'd leave a comment, and down vote such answers.

You could also leave a better answer on the question, showing the correct answer. Make sure you include a good explanation as to why the other option should not be used.

On this site however ...

When we say that comments need to "ask for clarification" - we mean that.

Your comment is an argument. It's stating your preferred action and why the answer is wrong. This is not asking for clarification. This is non-productive.

... you can't.

This goes against what happens on (perhaps all) other SE sites. Even on sites like Worldbuilding where answers can be based on fantasy, people are allowed to disagree constructively in comments.

Downvoting: Lots of users suggest posting your own answer or downvoting (DV). This has minimal (often negligible) effect on the parts of the answer that were wrong. Firstly, many (if not most) votes on Hot questions come from non-regular visitors that most likely have no DV rights. So DV is impossible.

Answering: when a problematic answer has 100 score would mean your answer is in the bottom, and the odds of being read are smaller than the answers at the top. Youtube has similar issues with its comments. If they simply let highest voted comments remain at the top, then you'd rarely see new comments. This is fixed by their sorting algorithms, which however don't exist on SE sites. (no, the option to sort from newest to oldest isn't how YT works..)

Criticism or removal of wrong/harmful points can't happen by posting my own answer. Some users will never even know that those points were wrong without highly upvoted comments that state them.

Yes, all the above could theoretically have an effect, but in our real world scenario they will most likely have no effect. Insisting that the above are a solution to the problem is wishful thinking.

Therefore, there is currently no easy way to tell an answerer that you think their answer needs work. Your comments will most likely be deleted.

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Sidenote

To clarify my answer based on comments here (and some offensive comments I've seen in IPS chat):

• I am NOT saying that the poster has issues. I don't hate him either.

• I don't disagree with the solutions the poster suggests. On the contrary I agree with most of them.

• I don't want the answer deleted, or forcefully edited.

• Rejecting someone that's flirting is perfectly fine (duh); calling security over someone insulting, making a scene, acting in a strange way, etc, is perfectly fine. (there are infinite strawman arguments of this type, can't address them all, sorry)

Also, if you disagree with my answer, feel free to comment and point out what you disagree with. If I am wrong on something, I'd love to hear it. Criticizing wrong ideas is why we don't still worship rocks. So please correct me.