How to talk about "who is responsible, who is to blame"?

Question

I am not sure if this is a good place to discuss this. But I guess it's better than the main site so I'll try.

The following questions: How can I avoid the awkwardness of a returning player who wears a low-cut shirt? and How to tell a coworker to dress more appropriately for the office are about what to do when another person is wearing revealing clothes.

It seems some people think everybody should be able to wear whatever they like wherever they like. And other people, including me, think that people who wear certain clothes should not be surprised if they get not so unexpected reactions.

I didn't have an answer to the questions but I commented on the first example and my comments were deleted.

My concern it that how can we find a good answer if we don't even agree on the situation?

My point of view is the following. It seems some people don't like it and delete it. Should it be deleted? Or should it be discussed?

I think it's easiest to describe this with a real world example: If a woman wears a shirt which shows her cleavage and maybe a short mini-skirt then I think she should not be surprised if men look. That is just human nature. But it seems some men feel bad that they act according to human nature and they think they have to apologize for this.

And some people blame men for looking. Why? If women see a baby they look (and some want to play with the baby) and that seems to be accepted. But if men see something that attracts them they should be ashamed - at least according to some people.

How can we discuss this openly? I don't think deleting comments and answers is a solution for this.

Answer 1

I don't think deleting comments and answers is a solution for this.

I would like to address this part of your question and point out one aspect of how you have been responding to situations like the one described that merits deletion.

When a question covers a topic that you have an opinion about, or when an answer to that question is prefaced by a perspective that you object to, writing a comment that propagates your opinion is not the way to handle it.

The site is very clear about its guidelines for what a comment should and should not include.

Comments propagating an opinion are unlikely to meet any of the guidelines for when to write a comment, and more importantly, are likely to fall into some combination of these three categories for when we should not be commenting on a post:

1. Secondary discussion or debating a controversial point; please use chat instead;

2. Answering a question or providing an alternate solution to an existing answer; instead, post an actual answer (or edit to expand an existing one);

3. Criticisms which do not add anything constructive ("-1, see previous comments you scallywag!"); instead, down-vote (and provide or up-vote a better answer if appropriate);

Jess.k's answer covered quite well how some of your comments did not include anything useful to the post, but they are all also quite clearly in line with point 1 (most of these comments were some sort of attempt to start a secondary discussion). Also, when commented on another answer that clearly has the opposite viewpoint, it then becomes un-constructive criticism that suggests a different answer would be better (point 2 and 3).

When we look at some comments you wrote here on this meta:

So in above cases I did not answer "it's her problem, ignore it". I asked the OP why he thinks it's his problem. And I asked a person who answered why he suggest this answer

Here you explained that you were criticised for writing an answer that showed your opinion, which explains why you decided to write a "less objectionable" comment. This highlights a few significant things that I would like to point out. Firstly, when you have an opinion about a question, your first chosen method (to write an answer) was actually the correct one. That is the entire premise this site is based around, as it lets us vote on each answer and comment for improvements. However, because your opinion was an unpopular one it was harshly criticised and you decided to opt for a different method (to comment and use leading questions to highlight the main points you disagree with) That is not how the site is supposed to work, and what lead to the deletion of your comments. If you have an answer that you know will be unpopular you still have the decision to post it, or not post it. Answers should only be down-voted when they are not useful to the site (and sometimes these questions deserve to be deleted) however that is not always the case. Users also often down-vote answers if they disagree with it, whether that makes the answer inherently not useful is a question for another meta but for now just take that as the way things are. These down-voted questions often still have an important place on our site, and are a valid form of presenting your side of the discussion and so long as it does not showcase a potentially harmful viewpoint or include any other clear issues it should not be deleted. However, using comments to put forwards your opinion is purposefully bypassing our voting system and the key reason they were deleted.

I understand that you don't want to discuss that. That is no discussion for meta. But I think it's a topic which needs discussion somewhere and not deletion. You call my opinion "nonsense". Personally I think people who ignore reality and nature are ignorant. And it seems political correctness hinders people from discussing issues like "Did she ask for it?" (It = getting looked at, nothing more).

It seems that a major point that you are unsatisfied with is that you feel the discussion your comments started should not be deleted. The clear objection to that is that the discussion itself is not the problem, rather the fact that you used comments to try and start it.

Comments starting secondary discussion should be deleted as explained by our help page, but that does not mean that the comments and the questions they raise themselves are invalid and belong nowhere... just that they belong somewhere else whether that is on chat, on meta or on a different site.

In the end, political correctness and other peoples respective feelings on the matter may or may not have sped up the process, but that does not change the fact that none of these comments belong on our site and answers that explain your perspective do belong here, but are subject to criticism and that is a good thing.

Answer 2

I feel compelled to answer this because I saw the comments roll in on both of the example questions and saw them coming from a mile away... Also, this has become a major pet peeve on IPS in general.

On just about all posts having to do with anything even slightly related to women, LGBT+ folks, or any other non-white-cis-hetero-male group or individual wanting to be treated with some basic human decency, people, like yourself, come out of the woodwork with their opinions.

I say I saw it coming a mile away, because these opinions really are that predictable. Almost without fail, someone, will feel the need to chime in with the predictable:

She was asking for it...
You can't tell people what to say...
Trans/homophobia doesn't exist, due to some sematic argument...
Not all men...
That isn't sexist, racist, phobic, etc...

Basically some version of:

This isn't a problem that effects me directly so it isn't a problem.
I'm not personally offended by this so no one else should be.

Or:

If it is a problem, it couldn't possibly have been caused by someone like me.

I've started referring to this as "the bro problem" and yes it is a problem, and yes it's largely due to people like you feeling the need to post these sorts of argumentative comments at every opportunity.

Sure you're entitled to your own thoughts and opinions, but you aren't entitled to post them in comments looking to spark argument and debate. If you really feel the need to voice your point of view write your own answer.

People are not obligated to engage with you in comments. That's not what comments are for. This isn't a forum or discussion site, this is a question and answer site. If you have a question or answer, post it. Otherwise keep it to yourself, or take it to chat.

I fully realize that I'm being harsh here. And yes I'm doing that intentionally, because I'm frankly sick of watching the site's culture degrade. We've lost more than a few good users due to this kind of petty sniping from the comment section.

Yes it is petty sniping, cowardly even. If you don't want your point of view examined and voted upon in an answer, so you go about picking apart other users' posts rather than writing your own you're a part of the problem.

Again, if you have something meaningful to say, write your own answer. Don't pick a fight in the comments.

Answer 3

I posted a comment - but I think I'm going to expand it into an answer so that it can be discussed on a better front.

You said (in a comment):

"I wrote different comments but it was both about the issue: Why should the man feel bad if he looks at something that is "presented" to him. I know that is not really the right word but you get the idea."

more specifically, your comments were:

"Don't feel bad if you stare at her. She is wearing something to make you stare. It's her choice. You only do what she is asking for.

and

I would love to read an explanation why some women continue to wear things like that when they know already that they will get stared at. For me it looks like: They know it, they do it again, that seems to indicate they want it. This is not trolling, I really would like to know."

To me, this feels chatty. It doesn't even seem like you are asking for clarification... You seem to just be passing judgement (and IMO a distasteful one) on the girl in question. It doesn't help minimize the question scope, it doesn't contribute to the post, it doesn't improve answers - it's just an invitation to begin a side discussion (and maybe even an argument about a woman's right to wear whatever she wants without feeling like a piece of meat, which is entirely out of scope for IPS).

If someone posts a question about religion, such as:

"I'm a Christian and I get uncomfortable when someone at work is talking to me about their sex life, because I don't believe in sex outside of marriage."

it is not appropriate for me, as someone who doesn't share that same viewpoint, to comment on it and post my different viewpoint and ask why OP is so sensitive about it. At the end of the day, people feel the way they feel. If someone feels bad about something, it's not your place to try to convince them they shouldn't - and that's not what this SE is for.

If you can't answer a question because you feel unable to put yourself in the shoes of the OP to give them a fair answer, you probably should refrain from answering said question. There are many questions I have chosen not to answer on this stack because I can't see the OP's stance as a reasonable one - and I think the same should be applied in instances like this. If you need clarification, ask. If you need your mind changed, refrain.

Answer 4

Simple way to address ALL of this.

Be nice, and avoid the politics. I've warned about this before, so I'll shout at the brick wall again.

Get off the soapboxes and answer the question asked.

If someone is asking about a social skill it is not appropriate to start editorializing in the answers or comments. Address the skill needed, and leave it at that. Leave the judgments, the snark, the accusations, the condemnations and the rest of the nonsense out of it. If you don't, this stack is going to be shut down as sure as I am writing this.

There doesn't need to be agreement on any particular approach or situation, if there did, this would be a blog and not a Q/A site.

Answer in a way you think is appropriate to the situation as you perceive it and let others do the same unmolested. If you disagree or agree with an answer, the proper way to express that is through a vote, not comments.

Answer 5

I am a heterosexual man that's answering.

I had saw your comment

I would love to read an explanation why some women continue to wear things like that when they know already that they will get stared at. For me it looks like: They know it, they do it again, that seems to indicate they want it. This is not trolling, I really would like to know.

which, to me, seemed reasonable. Why? Because I like the attention when I look good: if I'm going to the gym and have worked hard to get a nice chest, chiseled arms, six-pack abs, and have dieted with some good discipline, then I love wearing tank tops that show off my body. I've had women come up to me, asking whether they could touch my arms - they usually grab the biceps, although I'm more proud of the (bigger) tricep muscles that I worked on. I wear tank tops both because I feel good and because I know it pleases women.

I love the attention from women, when I'm looking and feeling good. And I don't mind the attention at all.

That's why I thought your comment was a reasonable one, asking why females wouldn't necessarily feel that way.

Jane S. responded to your comment, I think, that women often wear form-flattering clothes, because that's just how some female clothing is designed to be like, and also that not all women want to wear clothes with the intention to please men. This is a fair and useful comment.

Jane S.'s answer was also a very good one - it's instructional and not attack-y.

The problem, from what I saw, was when the user apaul starting attacking you with his comments, calling you a "bro" - not sure what that even means, but it sounds derogatory and divisive, at best - and he continued to post more divisive rhetoric in the comments to you.

I then flagged apaul's comments as rude / abusive, and also flagged another one of his comments for moderator intervention.

Then, all of the comments were removed shortly after.

I want to end with a few points:

• Jane's answer was excellent, as was her answer for a similar question on The Workplace SE

• I felt bad for you that apaul was coming after you like that, with no one stepping in for you. Though I stepped in and flagged his comments, I chose not to engage him in the comments - that just wouldn't end well for me, for you, or for anyone else. Apaul's comments tarnished a rather good answer by Jane, and it was nice that the moderators stepped in to remove the comments.

• Some of your comments (that I didn't see and that others have posted here) are not so great and don't really support your intentions to "learn without trolling". And I think you know that, too. You have to do a better job with choosing your words.

• Know that the actions of one person on this site is not necessarily representative of the community that is here. Not everyone is using this site as their own platform to attack and criticize people. Some people are willing to teach. Seek those people out and listen to them. And flag anything that you think may be flag-worthy (use good judgment for this) and don't argue with people in the comments.

Answer 6

My concern it that how can we find a good answer ...

There's nothing such as "a good answer", there's something that answers the OP and that's helpful to OP. And, later, to future readers facing the same problem; "good" is like "sweet" or "sour", it's not about facts, but about taste :)

... if we don't even agree on the situation?

• A says "Do X" = agree => +1 / disagree => -1
• B says "Do Y" = agree => +1 / disagree => -1

Upvote... Downvote... Wait... But that's just how SE works :)

You can explain your POV, it can be very different from mine, as your understanding. Fine. We'll both see a path, give a reasoning, some explanation, the how's and why's, and advice the OP.

Then, people will tell us. We don't have to agree. Sometimes, it's even better if we don't agree, because that'll show different POV, and help people think different, or choose different. I'm no better than you. I'm not the light side, and neither a Sith are you :)

In order to do that, the question has to be clear enough. On-topic. Not opinion-based. Not a duplicate. Not too broad. And so on...

That's also why we (the community) shouldn't answer anything that has not been clarified (thanks to unchatty comment ^^), explained, and, most important of all, precisely sticking to OP's concern and question. If you don't agree with their idea, let it slide and don't answer...

There's no need to be TFGITW. (didn't I already mentioned that once or twice? :))

How can we discuss this openly?

We are. You started the topic, I answer, and, hopefully, some others will...

I don't think deleting comments and answers is a solution for this.

I haven't seen your comment, but if it wasn't asking for clarification, if it was chatty, or rude/abusive, or an answer in comment, then, it had to be deleted.

When you want to discuss something, bring it to meta.

Comments and bad answers (often) receive DV and get flag'd. That's how the community tells us how we should properly do things sometimes, or that we should not cross certain lines, or that it was a bad idea, or a low-quality/below-average stuff... Nothing personal. We are human, we make mistakes. See any comment, DV/UV or answer as an help provided to you by someone that's thinking differently, and... don't even agree on the situation? ;)

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^{NOTE: moderators are here to help and enforce the rules set by SE, the staff AND the community. They are to be thank'd for that, not blamed. Very often, we (a lot of us) spend more time asking and cleaning than answering...}

Answer 7

TL:DR: A lot of this could have been (should have been?) prevented by:

• Understanding that Interpersonal Skills isn't meant for solely voicing opinions of any sort, so if questions are asking for that (who's right/wrong), they should be closed.
• This means that questions should be written clearly, so that answers can honour the premise (even frame-challenges should to some extent). Opinions should be backed up with experience. Clarify the question so that the situation described leaves no room for disambiguation, stick to the premise of the question and write well backed up answers.
• Answers should be about Interpersonal Skills. Telling people how to feel or whether or not they are responsible isn't that. It's interesting to know why they feel the way they do, but that discussion doesn't have a place on the main site or meta. Chat is your best option.

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I fully agree with some of the answers already written here, and disagree to a certain extent with others. But I'd like to point out, that some of this drama could have been prevented. I'm going to take just one example question from your question here, because otherwise this answer will become way too long: How can I avoid the awkwardness of a returning player who wears a low-cut shirt?

First of, your title question: How to talk about “who is responsible, who is to blame”?
If you ever, ever find a question boiling down to that, and only that, just close it. It's primarily opinion based, and not about interpersonal skills so it will be off-topic as well. As for the first example question you linked, that question is lacking details and the two example sentences together with the title basically leave it open to discussion and make it too broad as well.

How can I approach this situation in the least awkward or least offensive manner?

Isn't really asking for help with a particular Interpersonal Skill. At most, it is asking us for a list of possibilities. It doesn't invite good, long answers that explain how and why. It doesn't invite people to back up their opinions with experience or provide sources. It doesn't invite sharing experiences over opinions. Basically, it fails to meet guidelines for good subjective questions as set out in this blog post.

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Then, the bit about the situation: My concern it that how can we find a good answer if we don't even agree on the situation?

There are 3 things that can help here, the most important one being that the situation is clear in the question itself. It should leave no room for interpretation, it should need as little interpretation on the answerer's side as possible. Right now, as discussed above, the question could use a whole lot more detail to achieve that. I know people hate it when I go all pedantic on them, or ask for minor details like your most hated gossipy aunt, but I've seen it work. It's a lot easier to achieve the next 2 steps as well, if the question is in good shape, to begin with.

The second thing is to stick to the premise of a question. This does not rule out frame-challenges. It does mean you can't simply tell someone to not do the stupid thing because the stupid thing is stupid, and your awesome thing is better. To quote from the answer I just linked:

I believe that responding to "How do I $x?" with "Doing $x is inexcusable and/or evil." is inappropriate, and should be dealt with using downvotes and/or deletions to prevent shrill bickering over our differences from obscuring useful information that the questioner is seeking.

If you really want to write an answer to a question asking about e.g. how to apologize with 'It wasn't your fault', please just pass by the question. If you' think you can actually write a frame-challenge here, explaining to the asker the negative ramifications of apologizing by sharing experiences and drawing strong parallels between their situation and yours, then you might consider writing a frame-challenge. But if you decide to do so, part 3 becomes very, very important.

Part 3 is about the most unpopular thing here, because it requires nitpicking, maybe even sharing stuff you don't want to share on the internet, or ruling out 'common sense' answers. It is to back up your answer. I know a lot of people here aren't fond of me asking them to back their answers up. But this goes 2 ways: if you have an unpopular opinion, but are able to back this up with a watertight experience (e.g. you asked a girl to wear a higher neckline, in such and such a way, and it went badly wrong, so you'd advise against ever doing that) that is an answer. Bonuspoints if you can draw strong parallels between your situation and that of the OP, like explained in e.g. this meta on how to write experience based answers

It is, however, very, very different from saying:

I think it's easiest to describe this with a real world example: If a woman wears a shirt which shows her cleavage and maybe a short mini-skirt then I think she should not be surprised if men look.

That's not an interpersonal skill now is it? Think about it, what question does this actually answer? Who is to blame for looking? Is that an Interpersonal Skill? Not really. We do allow etiquette questions, so if you're asking about situations in which there is a specific dresscode, then yes, maybe, just maybe, this can be worked into an answer... but for the question discussed here, it isn't.

You can ask people to back up parts of their answers too, to explain the experiences or sources behind their reasoning. You can refrain from upvoting until the desired clarification is present. But remember, there's a difference between asking 'could you explain why you think the way you think' and commenting 'I think differently, I disagree with X, Y and Z'. Catija wrote a good meta answer with a good example on how to phrase a comment.

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For your third question: How can we discuss this openly? I don't think deleting comments and answers is a solution for this.

It was already pointed out that comments aren't for discussion. So, yes, comments discussing this stuff are deleted, and that's good. This site isn't the place to discuss. Take a look at some 'rules' a CM set for this site a long time ago in November 2017. They're not enforced or something, but if this site continues to fail meeting them, it will eventually get shut down.

I think it's perfectly natural for people to have opinions. I have a lot of them too. I commend you, Edgar, for wanting to know where other people's opinions come from, like you explained in your comment underneath one of the answers here:

It seems there are many questions like this and I like to understand why people think the way they think. In this case: Why does the guy feel guilty? Is that not a reasonable question?

It sure is a reasonable question to ask yourself, although it might not be a good question to ask in a comment or challenge in an answer. Guilt is something like religion or veganism, it shouldn't be challenged. This goes for all the 'feelings' on IPS. Please don't tell people how to feel, instead, provide useful guidance on how to proceed with those feelings. You stick to the premise that there is guilt. If the question is about 'how to apologize' however, you can point out apologizing might not be the best way to remedy this guilt, that it may lead to more guilt because you're about to do a stupid thing that in your experience won't end well.

It indicates a problem with the question in this case as well: A lack of detail. Indeed, what makes the guy think the way he does? Is there information missing here (maybe a cultural thing? Prudish guy?), or are we dealing with someone that overreacts and overthinks the entire situation? Sadly, it's very difficult to write good comments asking the OP to clarify this part of their question, but it's not impossible. I'd personally go with something like

I see evidence of only one incident, and I don't really get the severity. Could you perhaps clarify why you want to apologize/ask for a higher neckline? Is this related to something cultural? What makes you want to do what you want to do, and why are you afraid it will go wrong?

But remember, even without this information, it is important to stick to the premise of a question. If you really want to understand someone's motivations, your best bet is the chatroom. People can offer you possible explanations (though never the one and true answer, because we're not mindreaders).

Try and stick to the three steps above (clarify the question so that it leaves no room for disambiguity, stick to the premise of the question and write well backed up answers) yourself, and help other people do it as well, and hopefully, the site will improve over time...

Answer 8

I think the premise of this meta is faulty. Here's what you say:

It seems some people think everybody should be able to wear whatever they like wherever they like. And other people, including me, think that people who wear certain clothes should not be surprised if they get not so unexpected reactions.

This is not true. Nearly everyone understands that there are limits in how people can dress and what parts of the body can be exposed. Nudity, generally speaking, is not appropriate in the vast majority of cultures and situations.

The debate that people have is where the line between "to exposed" and "appropriate" is. In that regard, the answer should be written to address both scenarios - one that the person dressed is appropriately, and another that the person is not dressed appropriately.

The answer by @JaneS is pretty good in this regard; it is not overly critical of the viewer or the view-ee; it instead focuses on how to maintain a professional relationship in a not-clear-cut situation.

Because of the lack of dichotomy as premised in your meta question, and there is a concrete possibility that we can have a correct answer to the question that spurred this meta.

Answer 9

Trouble is, these are opinion questions. By nature. Not on!y is there no finite set of correct answers, there is no objective measure by which a correct answer could be distinguished from a wrong one.

It's a problem.

SE is an award-winning Q&A platform designed to be a more open platform than, say, ExpertsExchange or Quora[cite]. It has spent a decade iterating and evolving to answer questions that are positively answerable. The answering, commenting, voting and reputation system all evolved to be used with answerable questions. In fact, the vast majority of stacks have rules that prohibit questions which will draw opinions as answers.

And then you have IPS, a platform which draws like a magnet questions which have no factual answer, and every answer can only be an opinion. The architecture of the platform is completely wrong for that. Just as an example, lack of an objective "correctness" standard causes voting to devolve into "I agree or disagree". For lack of "correctness", what takes over is "political correctness".

And I'd point out, IPS's answers tend to be fairly sheltered, and don't even represent the broad consensuses (plural) of opinions that exist around the world - how would a Saudi man answer this question? How about a Mennonite? How about a "Stuck in the 1950s" Don Draper type? And of course we know: they are smothered with downvotes, back to that "politically correct" problem. they become censored.

Another way to argue it is that these are just poor questions and should be excluded from the system. That is certainly the most expedient way to solve this; Alexander the Great's sword to the Gordian knot. The problem is like I say, by nature IPS is a magnet for these questions, and that's a bad experience for newusers.

Lastly, opinions make a huge mess for the mods. Because where there are opinions, they get stated. Which segways back to your question.

The reason you we can't agree on the question is that it's not a good question, or not a good question for the SE platform because the platform is not architected to help us create consensus.