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The answer: https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/20726/21067

Note: This answer had been flagged, go to review and was judged "ok". I'm posting this here because I disagree with the judgment.


This answer as two part:

  • Part one is a frame-challenge

  • Part two is "if you still want to do it"

I don't have an issue with the frame-challenge part. However, I believe the second part to seriously lacking back-up.

To me, the second part is the most important one because it tells you how to act. But, without back-up, this is useless (to me, as the OP, who still want to talk to my cousin about this).

So, if you think this is a perfectly fine answer, please tell me why.


Edit: Someone suggested to remove the last part and here is what I think about it:

If we remove the last part, it wouldn't be a valid frame-challenge anymore and the answer would be deleted. Currently, the last part is lacking backup which makes it impossible to use. So, to me, it's like the last part wasn't here wich mean that this answer is an invalid frame-challenge.

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Speaking as the author of the answer being discussed I can only say the following:

I gave the answer in good faith, it is based on my own experience I could back that up with specific incidents and how they came out but I'm not going to do that, I'm not here to dredge up details of my personal life or those of the people I have known for that purpose, nor would it carry much evidential weight were I to do so.

As for the second part of the answer as I freely admitted in comments it has no backup because I don't support doing that, I think it's still a terrible idea and I only included it because of the OP's insistence.

Regarding saying you found my post "hurtful", well if I wanted to hurt I would have encouraged you to do exactly as ypu proposed to do - I think it has every chance of blowing up in your face. Which is actually the last thing I want to happen.

I'm on various SE sites and I always aim to give the best answer I can to give the OP the best outcome, and it was with the same attitude that I approached IPS, following a particularly unpleasant dog piling in chat on this general subject and now this meta it has become clear that IPS is less interested in such an approach than it is in validating OP's and telling them what they want to hear.

Which is fine, I mean different stacks have their own unique culture variations and as it turns out IPS' is not one I suit so on that note leave my answer or delete my answer as the community wishes. I gave it my best go.

Edit:

"I could back that up with specific incidents and how they came out but I'm not going to do that" - I'm sorry, but IPS requires backup of some sort, this sounds like you're agreeing you don't provide any? I know IPS is not like some other stacks, but the policy has been discussed at length here and decided on so we have a minimum quality standard for answers. I don't doubt that your answer was in good faith, but at present I don't see how readers are supposed to know the advice is based on lived experience rather than a wild guess. –

Firstly - that's some great selective quoting to miss the point I'm making. Secondly not a single answer on that question has any more "backup" than mine, yet mine is the only one getting raked over the coals on meta, despite passing through review. At the risk of sounding like I'm confusing correlation with causation could it have something to do with the fact that Noon asked me to edit something she didn't like out of my answer and I declined?

This really is starting to feel awfully personal.

If you feel this answer doesn't meet the sites required "quality" Em then delete it - you are a mod and have the ability and discretion to do so.

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    "I could back that up with specific incidents and how they came out but I'm not going to do that" - I'm sorry, but IPS requires backup of some sort, this sounds like you're agreeing you don't provide any? I know IPS is not like some other stacks, but the policy has been discussed at length here and decided on so we have a minimum quality standard for answers. I don't doubt that your answer was in good faith, but at present I don't see how readers are supposed to know the advice is based on lived experience rather than a wild guess. – Em C Jan 30 '19 at 4:31
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    Re the edit, I haven't deleted since (so far) nobody else here except Noon has suggested should be deleted. I don't mean any of this personally, this is just the only answer from that q raised so far on meta - I think your answer would likely be fine if you added a brief overview of your relevant experiences ("In situation z, I once said something like x and they responded with y" to explain the motivation for your advice). – Em C Jan 30 '19 at 20:34
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    The experience which "backs up" the answer can be given in an even more general way, along the lines of "in my experience, people are less offended by prying questions when you preface them with an acknowledgement that you are, in fact, prying into their personal business". The personal nature of this stack leads some askers to be a bit sensitive to critical answers, and some of those askers are aggressive in responding. Please don't leave this stack, @motosubatsu, at least not over this. I really value your perspectives on other stacks, and would like to see them here as well. – Upper_Case Feb 1 '19 at 16:18
  • @Upper_Case Thanks for your supportive comments - unfortunately I don't think I'm a "good fit" for the stack. – motosubatsu Feb 1 '19 at 16:29
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    @motosubatsu "I don't think I'm a "good fit" for the stack." I really hope you don't leave. There's a small set of members enforcing an unnecessarily narrow viewpoint limiting IPS broad usability. Only diversity in opinions, answers and skills will change that. – Johns-305 Feb 6 '19 at 17:34
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  1. I've answered the OP
  2. I can't say I've liked this particular answer.
  3. I've seen this answer in the review queue and skipped it.

. #1 : to me, there's no real difference in the ideas behind our 2 answers. It has big difference in the way to present them. That also explains point #2.

. #3 : I thought it was not fair for me to vote +/- on this one.

TBH and more clear, I don't like the idea of interfering in someone personal life. I explained that in my answer: you never know what's behind the scene, if there's a agreement or a need, and so on...

But there's also a big difference when saying NO you don't! first, then explain your word. To me, when you have to say something like that, that will probably go against one's will/need, you'd better remember that you walk on eggs. I'd rather start with some light words and warnings, and bring the idea (small) step by (small) step. This lets you explain your reasoning, and why it may be important. The latter is more "sweet", because it's brought smoothly and may be more welcome, while the former will often be seen as harsh, because it's a big hit, in your face, and "Welcome to the NFL!" :)

There's a lot to take into account between ON and OFF ^^ and IPS has decided it would be great to let people read/understand and pick the ideas/hints/clues. This is about "Human behavior", feelings, understandings, therefore, very different from some other stacks (especially the "technical" ones).

Does it mean the answer deserved a deletion? Not sure though... Can it be improved? Maybe. Or not. We have comments and chat for that. But if OP feels fine with their answer, let it be. They said it's their "honest assessment of the situation". Which means, MY feelings, MY point of view, and (it seems to me) no way to back it up other than with their own education and guts. I don't say it's wrong, just that the "icing" looks like an IT one, not like a pastry-chef's.

Many times in my life, I've realized that ideas are like pastries. They must not only be good, but nicely presented. The look is as important as the taste, the eye wants its part, like the mouth.

I think people would be more willing to accept that if there were some explanation about that, though.

I would let the community decide with UV/DV first, on this one.

We can still open another meta about the "icing" if you think it's necessary ;)

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  • Several points here: what is NFL? I'm not sure I understand where you stand here. Unless you are saying that you stand nowhere but the answer is too arch? I will definitively open another (more general) meta about "icing" because I think we have a problem with the way we talk to OP and the fact that we often doubt them. And, lastly, can you clarify if you think the second part of the answer is properly backed-up and if you believe it to be a problem or not? (unless you don't want to because you also answered the question?) – Ael Jan 26 '19 at 12:12
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    NFL is the american professional football league. When a rookie is first badly tackled by an experienced player, this is his "greeting": take the big hit in your face, fall on your butt, and welcome to the big guys league. Answers that start with a big NO reminds me of that. Take that big NO in your face and learn what respect is... 1/2 – OldPadawan Jan 26 '19 at 15:24
  • 2/2 : the way I understand it is not backed-up the way we expected it to be, rather the expression of own feelings and education/background/knowledge. It's not 100% what I think we expect, but education and background are also a form of experience IMO. So it's difficult to say... – OldPadawan Jan 26 '19 at 15:29
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Answers are not for the person asking the question, they are for other people who have the question. You don’t find it useful, you don’t think it is well grounded, you find it conceptually insulting. Down vote.

A deletion should be for more concrete reasons — actual insults for instance.

Also, I would frame challenge this question (not the linked question). The part of the question you are officially objecting to is basically “be honest, it probably won’t work but it will go less badly than anything else”. That’s not the part you objected to in comments:

and I find your assumption on me very displaced and unkind. I would appreciate if you edited that out

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  • I object to several things in comments. Here is the first comment I posted under this answer: "Do you have any backup as to why saying "I don't want to pry but are you okay with the chore distribution with" will be accepted well? Because this sounds a little bit too straight to me... " – Ael Jan 27 '19 at 12:45
  • So yes, I definitively object to the lack of back-up and, since answers here are require to have back-up this mine that, IMO, this answer is delete worthy. – Ael Jan 27 '19 at 12:46
  • 100%: "A deletion should be for more concrete reasons — actual insults for instance." Getting those reasons is particularly challenging. – Johns-305 Feb 6 '19 at 17:31
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I like the answer https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/20726/21067. The first half makes very clear why the goal of the question is not a good goal. Yes, it's blunt, but it's not rude.

You say

To me, the second part is the most important one because it tells you how to act.

No. The first part of the question is the most important part. It tells you exactly how to act. The second part is just there in case you absolutely insist on going ahead.

If you feel that the second part doesn't contribute to the answer enough, I'm sure the poster can remove that portion. But it would be an error to delete the entire answer. Just because you disagree with an answer, that doesn't mean it should be deleted.

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  • If we remove the last part, it wouldn't be a valid frame-challenge anymore and the answer would be deleted. Currently, the last part is lacking backup which makes it impossible to use. So, to me, it's like the last part wasn't here wich me that this answer is an invalid frame-challenge – Ael Jan 29 '19 at 7:53
  • @Noon why wouldn't it be a valid frame challenge? – DaveG Jan 30 '19 at 20:38
  • As mentioned here a frame-challenge still need to propose a solution to the question and simply saying "don't do it" isn't considered a valid frame-challenge – Ael Jan 30 '19 at 20:43
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    @Noon saying that a frame challenge requires proposing a way to do the thing that is being challenged would seem to make the very idea of a frame challenge meaningless. – DaveG Jan 30 '19 at 21:25
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    @DaveG Noon is talking about "respecting the question" when writing a frame challenge. I had the same misunderstanding you do and I got a nice answer from Tinkerinbell on it over here. – scohe001 Jan 30 '19 at 21:27

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