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Deleted despite:

  • 39 upvotes.
  • The only Answer replied to by OP: "Thank you. I agree with your comment about the internal negotiation"

The Answer was tracking very, very well. Pretty good evidence it was widely understood.

Please assure me this isn't personal.

Deleted Post

Link here: https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/22651

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    I'm assuming you're asking about the reasons behind why your answer was deleted? If so, can you make that explicit? I don't see a question in your title or body and using only the support tag doesn't really add any context. In other words, I'm not sure what you're asking or what kind of answer you're looking for here. – scohe001 Aug 19 '19 at 18:47
  • @scohe001 There you go... – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 18:48
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    The mod who deleted your post left a comment explaining why it was being deleted. Are you looking for additional context beyond that? – Rainbacon Aug 19 '19 at 18:51
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    I've noticed a pattern of you making meta posts demanding explanation for community moderator action. This is strange since most of the time, comments were left providing an explanation of why action was taken. If you ask more specific questions, requesting clarification of the comments that have already been left, perhaps your understanding of this site and it's policies will begin to improve. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 19:49
  • @sphennings I'm just trying to make better Answers. I though OldPadawan has addressed Em C's comment and since the Answer was tracking well, I figured it was understood by many. – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 19:55
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    @Johns-305 Show me that with your actions. Your meta questions are rather confrontational. Often demanding an explanation, when an explanation of the action was left in the comments. It sounds like what you really want to know is more about the specific requirements for a frame challenge answer on this site and perhaps some suggestions on how to edit your answer to meet them. It would go a long way to show that you're acting in good faith, if you were to edit this post to ask a more specific question. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:04
  • @sphennings I don't want to get into this again because it always end up with lectures on what's wrong with no suggestions on how to fix, well, when there are suggestions, I end up providing quotes showing they're already addressed. – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 20:08
  • In the past you have often said things like "This obviously meets site policy". This doesn't give anyone a good avenue to clarify your understanding of how this site works. Try changing your tactics ask something like "I thought that this met site policy because x, what am I missing?" – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:13
  • @sphennings Tried that last time. Any other suggestions? interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3769/… – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 20:15
  • @sphennings Let's try this, look at my edit, I added two references that basically state exactly what I'm saying (yeah, one is HuffPo, but it still supports the Answer). Is that enough? If not, they I genuinely don't know what to do. – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 20:18
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    RE your edit: throwing links onto the end of the answer doesn't really add anything. What happens when those links rot? It's far more reliable (and useful for those on locked-down networks where not all links are accessible) if you quote relevant sections of the articles or at the minimum, discuss what the articles are saying and why it supports what you're saying. – scohe001 Aug 19 '19 at 20:38
6

Four hours after you posted your answer, a mod left the following comment

As this is a frame challenge, can you add to your post what typically happens, in your experience, when you have tried to get someone to change their behaviors?

and when asked by another user about it, the mod clarified with

I understand that's his claim, but the only supporting backup I see for that claim is "a somewhat common saying" and the assertion that he has "excellent interpersonal skills", without giving any actual examples demonstrating their application to a real situation

Those two comments should provide all of the context that you need. Your answer was deleted because it doesn't adhere to the IPS citation guidelines.

To speak to your comment

"You can't" is the frame challenge. The rest of the Answer is addresses the question directly.

Addressing the question directly does make a frame challenge better, but it's not a substitute for backing up your answer. Personal experience is very important (especially if you are telling someone that what they want to do isn't possible) to demonstrate that the answer you are giving actually works.

Please assure me this isn't personal.

It's not. We often delete several answers each day because they do not contain sufficient information to demonstrate that they do work.

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  • They why was this popular, also ^39, Answer allowed to remain with no citation at all not even a semi-known saying? Should I flag it for moderator review? Actually none of the Answer there have citations. interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/7010/… – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 19:46
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    @Johns-305 Upvotes are an indicator that someone found a post useful. They have no bearing on site policy. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 19:50
  • @sphennings Rainbacon linked to the citation guidelines. I am pointing out that the Answer in the above Question do not have any citations at all. I am asking why they are allowed. Should I flag those Answers for lack of citation? – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 19:52
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    If you look closely you will notice that the answer you refer to was posted and last modified in November of 2017, well before we had citation guidelines. While we do retroactively apply guidelines to older answers, we don't go looking for them. If you see an older answer that doesn't meet the guidelines you are welcome to flag it. – Rainbacon Aug 19 '19 at 19:56
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    @Johns-305 Without even reading your link, I will tell you that everyone on this site is only human. We can't possibly read and moderate everything. So yes, if you think that post isn't up to site policy, please flag it to bring it to our attention. Either it'll be correctly dealt with, or your flag will be declined. Let's not derail the conversation by bringing up unrelated answers/posts to what you're asking here. – scohe001 Aug 19 '19 at 19:56
  • @scohe001 I just want equal treatment. I will flag and let's see what happens. – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 19:58
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    Like Rainbacon has said, @Johns-305, we delete an absurd number of answers every week! Heck, we've even deleted answers with 100+ upvotes. Nothing special is happening here. No one has it out for you. The content of your answer was judged as not up to snuff and was dealt with accordingly. The moderator has given you clear instructions on what you'll need to do to get the answer undeleted. Did you have any questions outside of that? – scohe001 Aug 19 '19 at 20:00
  • @scohe001 Honestly, I have trouble believing that. I can see deleted Answers and there aren't that many. Though I will agree that the ones that are deleted are pretty off the mark. Could some deference be shown to high rep users? – Johns-305 Aug 19 '19 at 20:05
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    @Johns-305 Wouldn't that be another form of unequal treatment? – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:07
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    Take a scroll through the deleted-answers tag and look at the rep's of those asking. The user with that 100+ upvoted question had 7k+ rep before they were deleted I believe. If you have some evidence or numbers pointing to any kind of a lack of "equal treatment," a meta post talking about it or the contact link at the bottom of every page would be the perfect place to discuss that. – scohe001 Aug 19 '19 at 20:08
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    @Johns-305 That's not how this site or any SE site works. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:18
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    To put together a nice little counter example. Let's say that I ask a question. Someone from China answers it based on the cultural norms of china, but doesn't provide any citation to show their experience. Now, all 1.5 billion citizens of China come along and upvote because they "understand" the answer. I still have no way to tell if the answer is good, because I don't live in China, and the cultural norms of China are not prevalent here. – Rainbacon Aug 19 '19 at 20:23
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    IPS isn't TWP. Just because something is acceptable there does not mean that it is acceptable here. It is a well established fact that this particular SE site operates quite differently than any of the others. – Rainbacon Aug 19 '19 at 20:24
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    @Johns-305 Workplace doesn't have the same citation policy requirement that IPS has. To clarify, there is no SE site that has an exception from site policy because of sufficient upvotes. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:24
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    @Johns-305 I'm not an oracle of site policy. I'd recommend making a new meta post asking if the edits you made to your answer are sufficient to get it undeleted and if not asking for suggestions on how to improve the answer. It takes more than one regular user to undelete a post anyway. – sphennings Aug 19 '19 at 20:41
3

Please assure me this isn't personal.

It is not, rest assured. I'm the one who deleted your answer. I did it after several people cast a "not an answer" flag on it a week before and because you did not address the requests in comments asking for backup. I'm sure you know by now our citation policy, we talked a lot about why this is necessary and how we apply it; everything that needs to be taken into account is described here.

They why was this popular, also ^39, Answer allowed to remain with no citation at all not even a semi-known saying? Should I flag it for moderator review?

The popularity of an answer doesn't have anything to do with whether it respects the site policy (and especially our citation policy since it is a specificity of IPS across the SE network), as someone said in comments, it reflects whether people found the advice useful. Now you're gonna tell me, "then why do I need to always provide backup if I don't have one but I have very good advice to give?" Rainbacon already did a great job of addressing this point in comments, there is no such thing as "common knowledge", or something "everyone knows". Especially when it comes to interpersonal communication. What you consider communication axioms widely differs with the functioning of your brain (i.e. if you're neurotypical, are autistic, have bipolar or OCD, ...) and the culture you grew up in/are currently evolving in. What is considered the friendly way to greet in the country I come from would seem extremely rude and awkward for Americans. What if I told someone from my country to greet American people that way because that's common knowledge that it does wonders in our homeland?

Actually none of the Answer there have citations.

On the five answers that are not deleted to this day, three of them have clear citations of personal experience with similar situations (they mention their marriage, their relationship with a coworker, a friend who had a crush on them). All of those are enough to show OP they had to deal with something similar and therefore increases the odds that what they're suggesting would work. I'm sure your advice would be pretty useful to people. We just need you to explain us how you've had to face something similar in the past.

Regarding the one which doesn't have these citations: it currently has one delete vote on it and I'm going to leave a comment asking for backup right after this. Moderation takes time. We're all volunteers here. Sometimes we delete an answer because it got flagged but three others on the same post should have been too. And they will eventually, or maybe the answerer will address the request for citations in the comment we'd have left and the flags will be retracted.

How can we prevent this from happening?

IPS mods agreed to let the community moderating users decide whether flagged answers with few upvotes are indeed not an answer or of very poor quality. We don't cast votes on those, we only leave comments. However, there are few situations in which a mod would single-handedly delete an answer (generally it's about spamming/trolling or rudeness), and one of those is when an answer with lots of upvotes gets flagged and it appears to lack something indeed. An answer with a score <=0 needs three delete votes from community users to get deleted, and the number of votes increases with the answer score, which is why we may intervene with highly upvoted answers that get flagged. Now, we don't delete them immediately. We check beforehand that someone left a comment asking for backup, wait a few days, make sure the answerer logged in and had the chance to address the requests in comments. And even if said answer gets deleted, it's not a finite situation. As I said in the comment I left you, once the answerer edits it, they may raise a mod flag so that we can evaluate it for undeletion. And not only mods can undelete it, this is something community users can do from the reviewing tools.

If one of your answers gets flagged and someone leaves a comment asking you to add citations, then please do. You may think this is common knowledge, but as shown before, there's no such thing like that on IPS. You wouldn't be asked for backup on the Workplace, but we're not the Workplace, they may not need such a policy, and I'm glad for them if they don't. But if someone wants to contribute to IPS, providing citations is a prerequisite they cannot avoid.

If you don't understand what you're asked for, then please ask us. We're all here to help. We may know better where to find the info needed to know how to write good Q&As. We want to provide the best possible experience to every IPS user, and this needs all of us to follow a given number of rules, whether we like them or not.

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  • Ok, there's citations now. Why is it still deleted? – Johns-305 Aug 20 '19 at 10:29
  • And would you mind also answering this question linked below. Sorry, yes, there is 'common' knowledge, at least common enough to where the same opinion is expressed, regularly. This is learned through shared experiences. interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3777/… – Johns-305 Aug 20 '19 at 10:32
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    "Ok, there's citations now. Why is it still deleted?" -> Probably because reviewing things take time and because the people who review things are unpaid volunteers who might have other things to do. – Ælis Aug 20 '19 at 10:35
  • @Ælis But it was unilaterally deleted. Are you saying moderators to do not have the same powers to restore? – Johns-305 Aug 20 '19 at 10:37
  • @Johns-305 They can unilaterally undeleted but that doesn't mean they won't take the time to review your post before undeletion, speak between them to know what they thing and eventually ask the community their opinion (if they didn't come to a clear consensus for example) – Ælis Aug 20 '19 at 10:40
  • Also, I think you mis-read my comment. I was pointing out these Answers no no citation whatsoever: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/7010/… – Johns-305 Aug 20 '19 at 10:40
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    @Johns-305 "why is it still deleted" ? because I asked you if you could include the takeaway from the last link you posted in that answer since, as scohe indicated in their comment, links may go away at any time, and we need to know what was important in what you linked. – avazula Aug 20 '19 at 12:02
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    I'd also like to say that I'm uncomfortable with your tone. We do the best we can, things won't get faster with unkind words. There's a "Be Nice" policy in place, and it's common across the whole SE network, I'd like that we all respect it and try to communicate in the most polite way. – avazula Aug 20 '19 at 12:04
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    @Johns-305: this question you linked is from November 2017, way before the citation policy was adopted. These answers will get flagged and edited/deleted eventually, when users review, flag and comment them. most of us don't go hunting for old, incomplete answers, most of the time these get flagged because the question popped in the active queue and someone took the time to inspect and review these answers. We're all volunteers. We have jobs, chores, personal lives as well. They'll all be reviewed in the end, but we're far from done with it for now. – avazula Aug 20 '19 at 12:10
  • There you go! I just expect the rules to be applied fairly and evenly. I'd be happy to help flag non-compliant Answers. – Johns-305 Aug 20 '19 at 12:13
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    Your help is more than welcome. Please remember to comment under those as well so that users know what to edit in their answer to make them compliant. – avazula Aug 20 '19 at 12:14
  • "We have [...] personal lives as well"... Well, maybe ((un)lucky) you :)) – OldPadawan Aug 22 '19 at 15:50

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