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https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/posts/23095/revisions

This answer was deleted, and a mod left the following comment:

Hi there. Your post got flagged and automatically deleted because of the video you linked, that was reported to us and that we judged disrespectful towards some users. If you can think of alternatives backup references that are not perceived as discriminating, feel free to raise a mod flag so that we can evaluate for undeletion.

Another deleted answer but this time it's for terrible reasons. It don't want to say it, but...

Blair White is a transgender female. She is a role-model and advocate for trans persons and trans issues. Flagging her commentary is deeply offensive and I don't want to even speculate on what the root of that may be.

If anyone had actually watched the video, it's clear that as a trans person, she wants to be gendered as female naturally and this whole pronoun thing frustrates her and other trans-persons ability to live as their gender.

The whole point is that trans persons put a lot of effort into their transition and respecting their transition is something they want without having to tell everyone every time. This is exactly what OP is facing and why forced pronouns are disrespectful, even if they're not trans.

She was also very clear that you should respect someone's pronouns, when they offer them. When she says 'nobody cares', she means no one cares how you choose to identify and will usually call you whatever you want, if you ask nicely. Again, everyone needs to actually read, and watch. This is a complicated issue, detail and context are very important.

"Warning: this video is openly mocking people who feel hurt by misgendering" This is flat out WRONG!

She clearly explains how it hurt to be mis-gendered early in her transition and how she made the extra effort to be and present as a female so society would accept her as such. And it worked. People correctly assume her gender just like she, and OP want.

To so grossly mis-characterize her transition experience is very saddening.

Blair has contributed hugely to trans acceptance by sharing her experiences with 650K+ Subscribers and at speaking engagements. I consider her a worthy source source for backup on this subject.

If you'd like me to correct any misunderstanding of anything she said, just let me know. I've very happy to explain how things really work in the great wide world.

Oh, I could use ContraPoints (see below) who makes the same case for assuming pronouns based on presentation: Pronouns | ContraPoints. But, I assume that would get flagged too because she's also binary and on the outs due to also pushing back against forced pronouns from...certain groups.

To be clear, these trans women want you to assume they're female, just as OP wants those in their (singular usage, not non-binary) to assume their gender. Their experience is directly related to OP's situation. OP can make a great case by pointing out that this policy is offensive to many trans people, Blair and Natalie are popular for a reason.

So, if a homosexual can't use the two most popular trans commentators for backup on a gender identity issue...I really don't know what to say.

I've been navigating the LGBT community for decades, including all the Byzantine gendering rules without a problem, to say Blair is mocking gendering is laughable and says her and my experience is somehow less important or invalid.

This forum is about Interpersonal Skills, but those skills are based on experiences and if you censor experience due to lack of experience, we're helping no one.

:(

  • This will be my only defense of the Answer. If I can educate and broaden perspective to restore the Answer, awesome! If not, well, I still have hope.

  • Let me know if ContraPoints' video would be acceptable. I'd be happy to add it. But Warning! ... but you'll have to watch the entire video ;)

  • If anyone mis-gendered Blair and flagged her for being anti-trans, well...still problematic but she's has put a lot of effort into her transition and I'm sure she'd take the compliment.

  • As a huge fan of Blair and all she's done for the community, I will not edit her out of the Answer. Let it remain deleted. But it does tell me a lot.

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  • "disrespectful towards some users" : as respect works both ways, is it possible that some persons found it offensive because of the arguments it used? Like every very controversial topic, pros and cons have their extremes, don't you think?
    – OldPadawan
    Oct 8 '19 at 5:20
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    Just watched the video. 1st comment (by the author): "*Wait people actually thought I was coming on here crying over being misgendered? I thought literally everyone would know it was sarcasm lol". And many other comments following. Pros and cons. Do we really want to keep this fight going on here?
    – OldPadawan
    Oct 8 '19 at 6:37
  • Unclear voters may please leave a comment if the title is unclear.
    – anki
    Oct 8 '19 at 7:48
  • I didn't DV or VTC (here or main) because I hadn't read really carefully and searched around for more data to analyze. If I had had to ask OP to improve the answer though, I'd have asked clarifying and warning about the "sarcasm from the video author and her being controversial". At least...
    – OldPadawan
    Oct 8 '19 at 9:14
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    @OldPadawan it's really up to whoever sees a post with R/A stuff in it to decide whether they're feeling generous and try to fix it for the OP, or just flag it and let OP deal with the consequences of posting something rude. The one thing we don't want to do is leave it up for anyone to run across, while we wait around for the OP to respond. In this case when the video was brought to our attention, we didn't feel comfortable editing the answer directly, so decided to delete it and left that comment suggesting how it could be edited.
    – Em C
    Oct 8 '19 at 15:28
  • @EmC : fine with me too :) in this case, if I feel offended, I'd rather flag ASAP with custom comments (1 for OP, 1 for Mods). I wish OP had just put some warning signs from the beginning, and let people be aware of the nature of the video, so that we "dodge the drama".
    – OldPadawan
    Oct 8 '19 at 15:49
  • @EmC I want to very clear that I will not be editing the Answer because someone misunderstands Blair/Natalie or is not sensitive to their effort or experience. If it stays deleted, I'm ok with that on principal alone. The video in question has ~250K views with 28K Likes & <500 Dislikes. That's a .01% ratio, very supportive for YouTube and believe me, Blair has plenty of haters. Again, if anyone needs help understanding her position here, I'm happy to oblige. Though I would ask you watch the ContraPoints video also for greater context.
    – Johns-305
    Oct 8 '19 at 16:17
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    I'm gender non-binary. In some of her videos, Blair White says "there are only 2 genders, get the fuck over it". So, basically, she is denying my very existence. So yes, she is embyphone.
    – Ael
    Oct 8 '19 at 16:31
  • @Ælis Did you watch ContraPoints as well? We should keep the discussion limited to pronouns which both explain is a real issue to trans gender persons. For clarity, I am using their definition of transgender which is binary transgender. Hopefully, they can help you understand why binary persons, such as OP, want others to assume their gender as an affirmation of their gender identity, cis or trans. The reason they are frustrated by the pronoun issue is it trivializes their efforts to become trans gender.
    – Johns-305
    Oct 8 '19 at 17:35
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    I don't see why watching ContraPoints will make Blair White video less transphobic. And yeah, I know that pronouns are a real issue for transgender people because I am TRANS and I am hurt when people willingly misgender me! But apparently, feeling hurt by that is laughable to Blair White. So, sorry if I find a video making fun of me and other non-binary people inappropriate and offensive...
    – Ael
    Oct 8 '19 at 17:44
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    @Johns-305 We should keep the discussion limited to pronouns > Nope, off-topic for this site, even for meta.
    – Tinkeringbell Mod
    Oct 8 '19 at 17:46
  • @Tinkeringbell Agreed! I think we have a Spock-McCoy situation here. "It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame-of-reference."
    – Johns-305
    Oct 8 '19 at 17:51
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    First, I believe very strongly in inclusivity and what you describe is gatekeeping. Second, her points are irrelevant, if she is offensive, keep her out of your answer.
    – Summer
    Oct 8 '19 at 17:54
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    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community. (Copied from main meta close reasons.)
    – Em C
    Oct 8 '19 at 19:12
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UPDATE: As the problems mentioned weren't addressed by the latest edit, which changed the question substantially and the comment implied an even different question, the moderator team has decided to delete the entire question until such time where we can work with OP in the Sandbox or chat to get to the essence of their question

First off: The question so far is unclear I closed it again for that reason, we don't know who OP will be interacting with at this point, which part of their behavior they need our help with as there's very little there about how they actually approached the problem already, instead there's just a lot about the results of these interactions.

But working from the premise that OP needs a tactic to communicate to people that they find disclosing their pronouns each time hurtful: This video does nothing except back up their premise that there's people that appreciate having their pronouns guessed correctly. It's not backup: It doesn't provide any behaviors OP can use, given the limits set out in their question, to actually have a productive conversation with people about not wanting to disclose their pronouns each time! All it does is reconfirm OPs premise (which we already should respect on IPS), and your opinion that indeed there's people out there who don't like having to disclose their pronouns.

Now, two quotes from the Code of Conduct:

No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language. Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a negative impact on others.

We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those are just a few examples. When in doubt, just don’t.

Blaire White is ... controversial ... at the least. The language she uses is harsh, and 'even if you don't intend it, this can have a negative impact on others'. We do have people here that use they/them as their pronouns, and linking to a video bashing those is likely to alienate those people. And yes, she very clearly states she dislikes these. Also, at the end, the part about Sam Smith, and their request to be addressed with gender-neutral pronouns just being their friends rubbing off on them? NOT COOL.

So yeah. Video by a controversial internet persona, with language likely to alienate people and unfriendly language that has a negative impact on others... This is not a source of backup for a site about behaviors used to interact well with others, and quite rude.

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  • Thanks, fears confirmed, a bit coincidental Anonymous' Answer was deleted also. Secondly, do you need some help understanding the question? OP's concern is pretty obvious but after reviewing the two non-Answers that remain, it seems only I and Anonymous have the interpersonal experience to relate.
    – Johns-305
    Oct 8 '19 at 11:30
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    @Johns-305 No help needed, see the first two paragraphs. I understand the basic premise of the question (or at least, the part of the question that would be on-topic on this site), and which details should be added. Also: This site is not here to 'relate'. If you want to do that, I suggest social media. The site is for questions and answers.
    – Tinkeringbell Mod
    Oct 8 '19 at 12:13

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